Katie Preface:
Full disclosure: I have known Katie for about 10 years, since she started at the Firm. In that time, I have learned to respect her on many fronts. Not only is she an extremely competent attorney, but as a person I have learned to like her. (and I admittedly don’t like many people) As a client, she has been willing to learn, experiment, ask questions and even move around machines when the need arose. I have trusted her professional advice on more than one occasion. When proposing a project, she will ask intelligent questions, not to argue the proposal, but to understand the overall goals. She has never said no to a proposal, and has offered additional insights to many. The only real problem that I had in getting to interview her, and getting an hour and a half of her time was her finding a way to carve the time out of her 50-hour work week.
Scott Livingston
Katie: You seem to be pretty good at tech.
Scott: LOL, don’t tell any body, they’ll want me to fix their computer. This little recorder just has these 4 little buttons that you hit and they never seem to do the same thing twice. I never know what they’re going to do.
Scott: So, I’m here with Katie.
Katie: Hi there.
Scott: And I’m asking Katie, what do you do all day?
Katie: I work in the law office.
Scott: And what does that entail?
Katie: It entails talking to people who are clients or who may be clients or who have interacted with my clients. It entails drafting, doing a lot of writing, a lot of reading, a lot of negotiating.
Katie: It entails a lot of emails mostly these days. Answering the phone, coordinating what staff does, training them, staying up-to-date on changes in the law and developments in the law and in the events and in our clients’ lives that we may need to get involved in. A lot of reading and writing and talking.
Scott: What are the challenges?
Katie: There are a few. I would say one of the main challenges is that people aren’t usually calling lawyers when everything’s going well in their lives. So we are talking to or dealing with people who are under stress or experiencing stress or sometimes grief, right, because we do probate. People are never at their best when they are calling us and it’s a difficult time for them. It involves a lot of compassion.
Katie: So, after someone’s died or a guardianship is established, so they’ve had an event where they can’t manage their own affairs, and sometimes that was a slow decline, sometimes it was a quick event. Regardless, it’s a grieving process, right? Grief makes people do funny things.
Katie: Also, so that’s a challenge is just dealing with people sometimes for the first time when they are not at their best. The other hard part is not saying, I told you so to people. Or finding a way, yeah, of not saying, I told you so.
Scott: Because often times you did tell them so ahead of time, yes?
Katie: Yep.
Katie: And then challenges are they’re a time stressor sometimes, right, in terms of, and I’ve heard this from lawyers across the practice areas, it’s sort of which fire needs to get put out first. There’s, I think people, what’s actually urgent, what needs to be urgent. Other, you know, other attorneys file things, other parties file things, and all of a sudden, I have to get a response into the court the next day or two days later, but I’ve been planning to do other things with those two days, so how do you balance it all? So those are some of the challenges.
Scott: Well, I’m sure that you enjoy what you do.
Katie: I do. I very much enjoy what I do.
Katie: I went back to law school after having worked for a little bit, so I did my undergrad and then I worked, then I decided to go back to law school as a part-time student, so I worked full-time and I went to law school part-time. So, it was an intentional choice. It was something I consciously decided to do.
Katie: I’d seen my mother do it in a slightly different format, right. She didn’t work in a law firm, but I had some idea of what it entailed and what I would be doing. I knew this was what I wanted to do when I went to law school.
Katie: So, I do enjoy it. I enjoy helping people. I like knowing the answer to things.
Katie: And again, when people are having a difficult time, I enjoy, I really like being that resource for them.
Scott: What is your role with the firm
Katie: I am the managing partner, so I do have a lot of administrative responsibilities as well as being a lawyer to clients. We are a small firm.
Katie: Sorry, the word is, we’re a boutique firm.
Scott: You have, what, five attorneys or six?
Katie: Correct. We have, I would say we have four and a half attorneys.
Katie: We have two attorneys that are working sort of part-time or three quarters time. They are looking to retire a little bit, so we have, we’re a boutique firm, so that means that I wear hats for administrative purposes, right. I do the HR. i also do the payroll, the bookkeeping, the scheduling and coordinate the tech needs of the Firm with our outside tech guy, I do the tier one tech support, and then we have a tier two that we call; [also], the admin.
Katie: I do most of the hiring and the firing in consultation with my partners, obviously, but I’m the spokesperson. And things like making sure office supplies are ordered, and dealing with the landlord.
Katie: For example, the air conditioning was out one summer, and so, you know, it’s hard to get fans in a law office because we have a lot of paper. So, figuring out ways to keep everybody cool, buying a lot of popsicles, and ice cream pops, and figuring out that, how to keep the things running, making sure billing is being done. But I enjoy operations, like I I’ve always had a bit, I think I’ve been a bit operationally minded, so I enjoy doing the operations.
Katie: I always have. Like I walk into places, and I go, I wonder how they, like for example, we were at Disney once, and I said, I wonder how they decide which of the team members get in-ear radios, and who doesn’t. And everybody’s like, that’s a weird thing to think about.
Scott: Actually, I think that’s a perfectly logical think to wonder about. What criteria do they use for the comms?
Katie: Right, well, no, at Disney we’re all logical. The logical thought is, where’s Mickey? But…
Scott: I’ll buy that.
Katie: But does Mickey get an ear piece?
Katie: Right, right, exactly. So, I’ve always been kind of ops minded. I thought for a little bit that I would do HR when I went to law school.
Katie: But I didn’t. That was more corporate, and not actually being like a practicing law guy. I enjoy practicing law, and setting some of my own rules.
Scott: What’s your favorite hat to wear?
Katie: That’s a tough question. Because I don’t think that I would be, like, I enjoy the variety. I enjoy being able to change hats, to be honest with you.
Katie: Please. I think any, all of them are enjoyable. All.
Katie: Because I get to do other things, too. And I don’t know if there’s one thing that, like, if I only did this, it would be satisfying or enjoyable or sustainable. So I don’t think I can pick a favorite.
Scott: So in essence, the variety, the ability to focus on different task daily is what you like the most? You can choose what hat to wear each day.
Katie: I would say, though, that doing real estate, right, representing buyers and sellers and commercial transactions is really well is my favorite, and is best-suited for my personality. Because it’s short-term projects. And generally, pretty quick projects.
Katie: Right? Like, we get a contract, 75 days later we’re closing, see you later, call me in 5 years when you decide to change houses again. Or call me in 15 years, right, when you’re ready to sell this strip mall and buy something else.
Katie: Buy an apartment. Defined deadlines. Everybody’s got a lawyer.
Katie: In, out. Boom, boom, boom. Get paid, you’re done.
Katie: Yeah. And usually a flat fee. So I don’t have to track my time.
Katie: I usually just do a flat fee. But you can’t, yeah. It’s hard to do that with other stuff.
Katie: And, you know, lawyer fees are a little too low for real estate. I would also say real estate is one of those areas of law that’s still very regional. There’s a move toward uniform laws.
Katie: So, you know, the probate law in Nevada [would be] the same as the probate law in Illinois is the same as the probate law in New York. We’re not there yet but there’s a move towards that. Real estate hasn’t gotten there yet.
Katie: It’s very regional. The real estate process from what I understand, talking to different people involved, like the real estate process in the D.C. area looks very different than the real estate process in the Chicago metro area which looks really different than the downstate real estate process which is entirely different than the California real estate process. Who’s involved, right? Like, even downstate, they don’t really use lawyers and I get looked at with suspicion.
Katie: If I have clients out there, they’re like, you’re just going to mess everything up. It’s not that hard. It’s 300 acres but sure, it’s not that hard.
Katie: And then my understanding is in the D.C. area, there’s one lawyer and the lawyer’s client is the contract. So, the buyer doesn’t have a lawyer. The seller doesn’t have a lawyer.
Katie: There’s a lawyer involved just to make sure that everybody does what they said they would do under the contract. And they each have their own broker to sort of help and advise them. But I tell clients here, brokers only get paid if it closes.
Katie: So they maybe have a different incentive towards the transaction with a lawyer because I’ll bill you either way. Of course. Well, but it changes that incentive a little bit, right? I will say, deals couldn’t get done without realtors, though, and without brokers.
Katie: They’re an important part of the process, for sure. And they can do a lot of things that lawyers can’t. Right? Or won’t.
Katie: I’m not by any way dissing brokers or realtors. I think they’re important. But it’s also important to understand where everybody’s coming from.
Scott: Okay. Now that’s what you do. So the next part of the question is how do you feel about what you do? What do you get out of it?
Katie: Well, I don’t know.
Katie: I can’t rank them. But one of the first things that comes to mind is perspective.
Scott: What do you mean by perspective?
Katie: Because I see a lot of the intimate details of people’s lives.
Katie: And I hear about it. Again, I think it gives perspective and seeing beyond your own lived experience or that of people that are close to you. Again, I get a lot of satisfaction about being a trusted resource and partner.
Katie: Although I think that view is shifting a little bit. People view lawyers more transactionally than maybe they used to. Although there are still some people that haven’t talked to one of my partners, say, in 20 years.
Katie: And they will still call up and tell me that Carl’s my lawyer. Well, Carl’s been retired for three years. And you didn’t talk to him for 15 years before that.
Katie: But okay. Which is great. I mean, I get money.
Katie: That’s important too. Although I tell people a lot I wish I could figure out a way to do this without billing. But I can’t, unfortunately.
Katie: I understand that. If I could, I’d open a non-profit and do it anyway. And honestly, I do enjoy employing other people.
Katie: Not from the, like, you work for me, but from contributing to society. We’re not an island to ourselves. We have other people that work for us and that are able to bring comfort to our clients and service.
Katie: That’s what I’d say. Let’s see. I’m trying to think of what else I get from it.
Katie: There is a confidence, I would say, that comes from it too. When I was in law school, we had a filmmaker come in and show us a film that she’d done, and then one of the producers was there. She was a lawyer going to law school, and she said, the thing is, I could sit down and negotiate a contract is a contract, and maybe I haven’t done a film before, but I know what a contract is. I know how to read English, and I’m law trained, so, like, I can figure out this contract too.
Katie: And so there is a little bit of that confidence, like, I know, right, like, I understand, I know how to read, I understand contracts, I’ve seen situations, and so there is a little bit more of that, like, throw something at me. I can figure it out. Or I know what I need.
Katie: I’m also better, I think, at identifying what I don’t know and saying, that’s not something I know, so I’m not going to jump in or I need to call someone else to help me learn to figure this out. There are resources to do it. I find myself telling people in the office that a lot, like, I didn’t just magically know this one day, I didn’t fall asleep and wake up knowing something.
Katie: It’s written down somewhere and I read it. And if I can read it, you can read it too. So do that, like, trust yourself to read and then see what comes from it.
Scott: You’re a good leader from what I can tell, from what I’ve observed.
Katie: Oh, well, thank you for that. I don’t know that I, I mean, again, I’m not afraid or dissuaded by leadership positions.
Katie: So, I was editor of my yearbook in high school and I was senior class president and I was captain of the volleyball team. But personally, I don’t think I’ve empowered people in the office to be independent enough. I think that there’s a real… But again, I don’t know if that’s me fostering it from, like, certain behaviors or if that’s just a general human tendency.
Katie: Right? Rather than looking for a file, an associate will just come in and say where is it? And you have to tell them to go and find it on their own. So, I’ve been trying to look at myself a little bit more in terms of how to be a leader that empowers people to act independently but it’s tough because it is my right, my or my partner’s law license. Like, it is not okay to show up in front of a judge or a tribunal and say, well, my paralegal did that, so don’t blame me.
Katie: Right? My name is on it. Buck stops with me. So, to that extent, I do have to be a bit more oversight than maybe I would naturally in terms of, just go do it and figure it out and I’m sure it’ll be great.
Katie: Right? It’s my name on it and my ability to employ you depends on me having a law license. So I need to make sure that it’s done this way. I can’t just give you a carte blanche to write whatever you want and file it.
Katie: So again, it’s sort of finding that, making them feel empowered in the ability to act independently but also being comfortable with what’s being done and putting my name on it. Like, you’re seeing these AI cases now, right, where they’re hallucinating cases and lawyers are filing it. They’re signing it and filing it and then getting called in and there was one in Chicago where he said, well, Judge, my associates did that research.
Katie: And the judge said, but they didn’t sign it, you did. And he was like, well, yeah, it’s a big case, right? I want my name on it. Like, well, if you want the attention, then you also get… Liability.
Katie: Right. You can’t possibly expect me to overview all of it. The judge is like, I do.
Katie: Yes. When you are signing… I mean, that’s why I tell clients, right, they’re signing that the facts are right and I’m signing that the law is right. Because I don’t know the facts that they lived and it’s not their job to research the law.
Katie: Like, that’s not me. So, yeah. But… Yeah.
Katie: Being a leader. But that’s the other thing is, like, from the very first day I said to my first paralegal, like, if anybody starts getting shitty with you, I don’t pay you enough to deal with that. Right? They come to me then.
Katie: You get to do the fun stuff. And I’ll do, right, the harder stuff. If anybody’s yelling at you, tell them you’re ending the call or tell them I’m going to talk to them.
Katie: You don’t deserve or need any of that. So, in that… Because I had a boss that said that to me before I went to law school and worked for a little bit. And he said, there’s nothing you can do that I can’t fix.
Katie: So, there you go, I continued that idea with my employees as much as I can.
Katie: I wish I could say that to everybody in the office. I can’t. Because there are some things that would be really expensive to fix.
Katie: And being a lawyer, I think I’ve definitely moved my personality from it’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission. And I’m more in an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure mode. If we know what’s coming, let’s just take the time up front to get it right the first time.
Scott: Do it right the first time. Yeah. So, what else do you want me to know?
Katie: I mean, I think it’s realizing that dealing with lawyers are a very significant event in your life, right? Whatever you’re going through that you need a lawyer to work with you for you on.
Katie: And it’s probably taking a lot of your time and attention and brain space. And it might even be something new to you. But you’re one of many in that lawyer’s attention span.
Katie: And so they’re not going to have everything top of mind all the time. Most lawyers get into being a lawyer because they want to help people. There’s a money motivation there, too.
Katie: But I mean, the first week of law school, they sit us down and they say, okay, here’s the money distribution, right? And most people are a modest reasonable salary, most lawyers. Some of them are in public interest and they don’t make anything. And then some of them are real high flyers and they make eye-popping numbers.
Katie: But both of those are ends of the bell curve. And the middle is a group that makes a reasonable salary. So, we’re not all getting super wealthy, and that’s fine.
Katie: But your lawyer really does want to be helpful. And like most other specialized professions, like engineers, or doctors, because you’re good at the technical thing, doesn’t mean you’re good at running a business. And that’s just the way things are.
Scott: I’ve seen that many times.
Katie: Right. And again, not just lawyers. But I do not think the answer is to have venture capitalists on it.
Katie: There’s a push or a movement towards having non-lawyer ownership of law firms. I don’t think that’s a great idea. No.
Katie: Just like we don’t allow non-engineers to own engineering firms. We’re trying. We want to help.
Katie: And it’s helpful when people are informed. So, like, use your Google, right? Use your internet search tools, but also understand that… I mean a lawyer is a specialized, individualized service tailored, right? It should be tailored to you, so the internet isn’t going to know your specific circumstances. So probably be open to that conversation.
Katie: Okay. And I’ll just say I love when people do online wills, because I make a ton more money on the probate.
Scott: Oh, because they’re so screwed up?
Katie: Because there’s always problems.
Scott: That would make sense to me.
Katie: Because again, they don’t… There’s no way to build a computer program to ask every question or take into account every sort of contingency that might be out there.
Scott: Thank you. I’m going to let you eat your lunch now. Sure.
Katie: Postscript
After we finished the interview, Katie and I spent awhile talking. This was an added bonus to me as in all the years I have known her, I’d never gotten so much of her time in one sitting.
We talked about dogs, (one of her dogs is critically and terminally ill), relatives (one of her husband’s uncles is very ill) and in laws. We talked about how family is family, and sometimes that doesn’t mean blood. You take care of your family no matter what happens. We talked about life and death decisions, and how hard they are to make when faced with them. Making decisions as to how to end a life, and how to care for that person involves a lot of resolve and compassion.
We talked a lot more about why she does what she does, and how her life works. We talked a lot about how it isn’t all about the money, how there are a few percent of attorneys who make little, a few percent that make eye popping salaries, and the middle of the bell curve attorneys that make a realistic salary. She is happy being in that middle group. We talked about how doing what she does to help people makes it all worthwhile. How she appreciates the other people in the Firm and what they mean to her. She reminded me, like I needed reminded, why she is and has been one of my favorite clients for so long. All in all, in the top 1% of the bell curve, where the few of the really good people reside, is where Katie is.